Posts by Old Goat

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

Ucant,

I sympathise. I devoted years to what I saw as The Truth. I still believe that many Witnesses are christians. I dont' see current teaching and practice as christian. But I have regrets. I regret things I said because I now see them as wrong. I spent some months trying to redirect an abusive elder, and ended up being abusive myself. I am, alas, now a cranky old man.

But new life is new life. If you are certain the Witnesses are wrong, then don't look back. If you regret what you've done in the past, make is as right as you can and leave the rest in God's hands. If you feel you need to return to revalidate where you are, attend meetings for a while. See if you feel other than you once did.

I think the Watchtower is wrong in vital areas. I do not see them (most of them anyway) as anything but true believers, even if they are misguided. I'm not a uinversal salvationist, but I think the book of Jonah teaches that salvation comes even to those who are misguided and child-like. If Witnesses are that, they are still within God's Grace. I know not many here think similarly. But that is how I think.

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

Ucant,

sorry. it's the old-time lecturer in me. If I treated you as one of my students, I apolgize.

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

When I was a new Witness, the majority of the congregation were "anointed." They were no different than those who did not claim an anointing. A true spirit anointing does not make you better, stronger, able to leap tall buildings at a single bound. It does not make you smarter, better looking, or more faithful. In the biblical sense - and as the watchtower actually teaches it - it marks you for a different destiny. If an "anointed" brother or sister seems more knowledgeable, it's because they've probably studied the material longer than others. They do tend to be on the older side.

To return to your illustration using Eve: She and "the serpent," whom we usually take to be Satan, received the same punishment. Eve died. Satan will. So who was the more responsible? Perhaps not every watchtower doctrine or practice we dislike is unscriptural. But even if they all were, are we free from the obligation to test what we learn? No. Not even if our parents taught it to us.

The Protestant reformation returned the idea of personal responsibility to the fore. The Latin phrase sola scriptura, meaning “by scripture alone,” set the standard for faith. It is a biblical standard. The Watchtower gives lip service to that, but takes it away by crafting a governing system not found in the New Testament. (Enough of this Greek Scriptures nonsense!) We are not responsible for what they've done. We are responsible for believing what they say.

Arguments that focus on someone else's blame are like a child rejecting discipline by saying, "But YOU ..." It doesn't matter what someone else does. It matters what we've done. This is what the Bible teaches. We see that in Joshua’s “as for me and my household.”

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

I was baptized in 1948. Yes, that makes me old. I lived through much of this history. I don't hold anyone responsible for my belief but myself. Nor should I. If we were taught wrongly, it was still up to us to decide to believe. I have always been what one of my friends calls a "sekptical believer." When I was an active Witness (You may have heard me at District Conventions), I questioned things. It made me unpopular sometimes. In the approach to 1975, The Watchtower Society told me to stop writing to them about it. Eventually I reached a tipping point. I do not blame the person who studied with me. He's been dead for decades. I don't blame Franz or Knorr, both of whom I knew at least somewhat personally. The fault is my own.

I doubt one can move on until they take responsibility for themselves.

Do I still have unresolved issues. Yes, I do. But, while I reject Watchtower philosophy and practice. it was my choise to enter and certainly my choice to leave. I didn't fornicate, smoke, steal, have sex with my neighbor's donkey or childen. I stopped believing things that seem very unscriptural and I rejected the self-serving, self-entitled view of elders (I was one at the time) and governing body members. In fairness, I don't know any of the current GB members except on the basis of a brief meeting with two of them. All those I knew personally are very, very dead. And they weren't all like that. John Barr (and his wife too) was a Christian in every sense - Approachable, loving, kind, concerned. That can't be said about others of them. But, none of them persuaded me to believe. I did that myself.

If our critical faculties lapse, it's not someone else's fault. It's our own.

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

If we believe the Bible, then we must say she was "deceived." We either call God unrighteous for punishing her or we assume that she bore personal responsibility at least for not taking the issue up with God whose voice walked the Garden of Eden. Ultimately we are responsible for ourselves.

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

It is probably an unpopular view, but we are responsible for ourselves. Focus feels duped by who ever converted him to Witness theology. Others feel similarly. But we are responsible for the decisions we make. If we failed to investigate before conversion, the fault is our own. If we persist in believing the impossible, that’s our fault too. If we adopted a manner of life we found we could not sustain, we made that decision.

Blaming others for our walk in life makes us resemble a guilty child who shouts, “I didn’t do it!” Witnesses do not hold a knife to anyone’s back. They persuade, apply social pressure, hold out a system of “holiness” and reward. But if we were persuaded to believe, the final decision was our own. Assume responsibility for yourself.

What Focus does resembles a tempering child. If we seek to dissuade others from being Witnesses or simply wish to put our own case forward, we do not succeed by being an abusive, screaming child. We may do so by being a rational adult.

Focus makes many claims. Others on this board can make better ones and with a firmer basis for them. However, it is not a claim about oneself that matters. It is rational discourse. If we were convinced that Witness doctrine was rational, most of us do not see it that way now. If we wish to reach others, we do it best by being rational, factual and honest. One cannot be or project any of those things by ranting.

Those who quietly wrote letters back before Focus even questioned Witness belief, who met in person with Watchtower authorities, who cornered them at conventions or in the hallways at Bethel and put difficult questions to them are the real heroes of this story. The brash and rude and irrational are not. They cloud the issue.

The Witness organization tries to remove one’s sense of personal responsibility and standing before God, replacing it with the mind of the elders and other Witness hierarchy. That may explain why some of us focus on others, when we made the decisions that took us into the Witness organization and out of it again.

Focus, I do not see maturity in your future.

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

Usually, those who assert their genius don't have the intelligence they claim. They have mental health issues. In this case we have many claims and no substance. All that's happening here is that a disinfranchised man is looking for attention he can't get elsewhere.

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

Simon, thanks.

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

my question to Simon is, why is he back? apparently his only interest is in disruption.

95

The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals

by cofty in

my thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.

this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.

it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.

Old Goat

Focus,

I take it back. You are a moron. buy a good grammar guide and figure out how definite articles are used in sane life. Isn't it time for your thearapy?